Noha, this was absolutely beautiful. As you talked about the deep history of the Islamic world, I actually thought of Andalucía, before you mentioned it -- I spent a month there and a couple of days ago just hopped over to Morocco, and have been completely enthralled with the culture and beauty that have been preserved.
Though not the same, you also reminded me of my own childhood: I grew up in the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church, which is one of the oldest forms of Christianity in the world (3rd century AD) and it maintains a a very unique, rich cultural tradition; but because I grew up in the west, I always thought of Christianity as a “western” version -- Catholic, Protestant, etc. It was also a bit odd because most of Africa had been converted recently, while we had kind of isolated and kept to an old Christian tradition. I don’t practice religiously anymore, but I appreciate our Tewahedo cultura a lot more in its uniqueness and how it influenced our broader society.
Zefan, thank you so much. I'm so glad it spoke to you. I've come across a lot of interesting information around older Christianity (which I think Muslims would find more familiar than modern Christianity) and it's really sparked my interest. Does the Tewahedo Church follow the Nicene Creed? That is, does it follow the concept of trinity?
I totally get what you're saying about perceiving Christianity as a Western thing - I thought that too, for years. I also associated Muslimness as Arab. But there are many Arab Christians and many Muslim non-Arabs (eg. South Asians, East Africans, South Africans, etc etc)
Andalusia is absolutely stunning and I would love to go back again and again. I'm so grateful to have seen more of the culture and understood how broad ranging it is.
So yes, the Tewahedo church does follow the Nicene Creed, and I think all do, because it was part of the first split around the 4th century where there was disagreement about if Jesus had two natures (one human, one divine) or one nature (both human and divine). The Ethiopian Church, as well as some neighboring ones like Egyptian and Armenian, believed the latter and so broke off.
But yes, many of the religious practices are very similar to Islam, as well as Judaism! Eating habits are quite similar across all three, and hygiene regarding prayer (washing hands and face, taking off shoes, covering your head) are similar to Islam as well, maybe parts of Judaism too though I’m not sure. I do find it interesting how similar all the Abrahamic religions were initially, because I see the Tewahedo church as one that just hasn’t changed with westernization as the other sects of Christianity have.
That's super interesting. I figured maybe it didn't follow the Nicene Creed because it was from 3rd century AD and the Nicene creed was from 4th century. Also the word Tewahedo sounds really close to the Arabic word "tawhid" which is used to depict worship of One God.
I think your theory about why they're so similar is spot on. A lot of the things Muslims still practice used to be practiced commonly in Christianity, as you said. And possibly in Judaism although I am less familiar with their details.
Yes we were actually in Nicaea and agreed to that one, but there was a subsequent council in the 400s which is where we and some other churches fell off. But actually, Tewahedo does mean something like “United as one God!” Except it refers to Jesus being one, instead of having the two states that western churches adopted. It’s a word in Ge’ez, which is a dead language now but the language I speak (Tigrinya) is similar and even now in Morocco I’m noticing some some words in Arabic that are close enough for me to understand, especially numbers! It’s very cool.
That's so interesting! And confusing. I'll have to go back and compare what was in each council. I thought that Nicea was the one where they spoke about Jesus being in mulitple states, but it sounds from what you're saying that it's more at the council in the 400's that this came about?
It's so cool that the meaning is the same across those languages. I was just spitballing and it turned out to be true ...
It’s a little confusing 😅 It’s the council of Chalcedon in 451. Honestly, modern religious scholars have said that the disagreement didn’t actively matter in practice, but it happened haha
I had to go back to find this conversation — I was so surprised at the presence of Islam in Macedonia and Kosovo! There’s even public call to prayer… made me think of what you were saying about how false the Islam = Arab stereotype is. I thought I was pretty educated here but even I was so surprised to find such a presence in Europe!
Hey hey!! I went back and re-read our earlier chat on this one - I am still confused re Trinity etc😂
But yes, the false Islam = Arab stereotype is real! And I've got a huge smile on my face - I take it as the highest compliment that you remembered this piece existed and came back to it after so many months... Are you in Macedonia/Kosovo now? Is this your next stop post Bulgaria?
To be fair everyone is confused if they try to think about it, religious scholars today say it has no actual impact on anything 🥲
I am in Kosovo currently! I’ll hop around the Balkans for a bit (Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo) and then… I have to get off this continent, I’m not a summer in Europe girlie lol, but idk where yet! So we’ll see 👹
Salaam! What a beautiful piece and powerful journey. Thank you for sharing, it's very inspirational and brought joy to my morning. I love how you bring it back to your mother in the end, and see how you weren't ready to see the wisdom and beauty then, but now you are. And I love this idea of a shift from a two-dimensional to a three-dimensional relationship, adding depth. Thank you!
Thank you so much, Wietske. I just read through your European Turtle Dove essay and it's so lovely! I love to weave Quranic verses into my writing too so I felt like I'd found a kindred spirit.
I try to remind myself of how long it took to internalize my mother's teachings when I feel like my kids aren't quite there with mine. It's helpful to understand that these things are slow cooked and take time.
Thank you so much! Ah, what a joy to find a true sense of connection, both with our own families and with like-hearted people online. Have a lovely day!
Thanks for this essay. I'll have to read it a few more times to really unpack it. It's so great to have those moments where you begin to understand what your parents and elders were trying to teach you. I think about that with my son introducing him to things and not really sure why but knowing he needs the exposure. It's funny you mention Greek mythology, every time I talk to teens, especially non-white ones, about what they're reading in school and they mention Greek mythology, I can hear the agony in their voices. I think it's important that they have some familiarity with it, but the singular focus as if there are no other mythologies, and the fact that is still the case in American schools is so frustrating. Reading is about learning ways of seeing the world. I see in working with kids and teens that they crave different lenses. It seems your mom understood that exposure would benefit you later in life. I recently learned about Leo Africanus in a book about African Muslim civilizations that I read with my son. That led me to read a historical fiction about him written by Amin Maalouf. I grew up around the corner from a "St. Leo the Great" Church and now knowing that "St. Leo" was a North African Arab Muslim I'm still tripping off that. As for your question at the end, not to be navel-gazing but I've been thinking a lot about how I've simplified myself and my family's history, we're "just" Black Americans, which has a lot to do with how we as Black Americans are miseducated about our own history - we were savages, then slaves, then free and now we're here. So now I'm enjoying digging into my family's history and learning our origins and migrations and how all of that lives in me and my family members. It helps me see the complexity in us all.
Ambata, your reply brought up so many different ideas for me. In terms of the Greek Mythology conversation, I totally agree with you. it's helpful to have some sense of it from an English Lit perspective, but I remember thinking as I learned about it "really? This? Absolute nonsense!" - It's made out to be the greatest thing ever and it's not really any more special than any other myth. In Ontario, my province in Canada, we studied Greek Mythology in 9th grade. My eldest is in 8th grade now, so I'm not sure if they're still doing that, but I do know that both boys have learned a lot of Indigenous myths for various Indigenous tribes of Turtle Island and we definitely didn't do that at their age.
The Leo Africanus connection is WILD. So he's a Muslim and it was turned into a church? I'm fascinated.
I don't think what you're describing is navel-gazing at all! We are not encouraged to learn our history, and are instead encouraged to learn everything there is to know about Euro-centric culture, life, background. Have you read the novel Americana, by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie? It really delves into this idea, from the perspective of the main character who's a Nigerian woman and belongs to a specific ethnic group (I don't remember which one now, which is embarrassing) but then moves to the US and suddenly her actual ethnicity doesn't matter and she's Black and that's it. I really enjoyed it.
Yes I love Americana. Was just thinking it's time for another read of it, it's still so relevant. Regarding Leo Africanus, so he was canonized, but the historian belief is that he likely faked conversion to save his life. His story is fascinating. I would definitely recommend the book.
Hi Noha, this was a gorgeous post. I read it a couple of times to see what came up for me. I felt like I was traveling through Spain with you all and loved how you tied the story together at the end by reflecting back on your mom's plays.
I watched the interview you shared with Gabor Mate, he's such a rad guy. I've been listening to The Martyrmade podcast (he's on Substack!), the first episode from 2015 kicks off a deep dive into the Palestine/Israel relationship that goes back to the time of the Jewish exile. It has been fascinating. I think he takes a neutral perspective and it feels more like storytelling than convincing. I really didn't know how much involvement western Europe had well before 1948. It's still a bit unclear to me where and how the US was involved, but he may be getting to that. It's slow going as the episodes are each several hours long, but I'm not sure how I would have learned this much otherwise.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and all of these resources.
Katie, I'm so glad you enjoyed it. It really was an experience where so many things came together for me.
I really appreciate Gabor Mate and the fact that he's been able to change his stance on the situation once he saw the cost of Israeli occupation. I appreciate him doubly as a Canadian for his positions on the issues Indigenous people in Canada face as well.
I haven't heard of the Martyrmade podcast but I'll look into it! Thanks for letting me know about it. Yes, the US and Western Europe were involved from the start. I really do think understanding the history is valuable. A lot of people are told "it's complicated" or, "it's a religious war" or "it's a conflict that's thousands of years old" but none of that is true, and I think these are just intimidation tactics that are used to try to get people not to engage and speak out for an end to occupation.
That line! “It’s a conflict that’s thousands of years old” made my ears perk up when he said it on Martyrmade. I was thinking... wait, it’s not? You have my attention. I hope you do listen, though you’re already well ahead of me learning the history, so it might be singing to the choir. I’d love to discuss it with someone though!
If you have questions or want to chat about it do reach out! I may not have time to listen to it all but if specific things came up for you I may already know about them.
Just to clarify, did he explain that it's not a thousands of years old conflict? Or is he of the position that it is? I'm assuming he agrees that it really only started in the late 1800's.
And yes, that's right. As I understood from his story, the Roman's burned down Jerusalem sometime in the first century C.E. The Jewish people fled and made homes elsewhere around the world until the 1890s when Theodor Herzl established Zionism and rallied followers to establish a Jewish homeland.
Even with that context, it's so messy. I don't have a strong religious background that would make me align with a group of people in that way. My western European heritage hasn't been significant in my life so far with the exception of being white which makes it not insignificant at all I guess.
I suppose my American identity might be similar enough, though I don't feel like I'm bonded more tightly to someone because they are from the States vs someone from another part of the world. It's weird to me that we would say today that "we need a special piece of land because we're Americans!" Of course, this decision was made long before I came around and a bunch of people decided just that. Having the privilege of judging the past with the knowledge of today also makes this complicated.
Do you have this kind of connection to other people who are Muslim? Egyptian? Canadian? If that's complicated to answer in this kind of public way, I'd understand if you'd rather not. I had conversations like this during my travels and it was a mixed bag how people felt about their countries and family or community ties, including a group of men and women I met from Israel.
Wow. Incredibly moving. This is one of those pieces that needs some time to settle in me.
I travelled to Granada this month! I was invited to speak at a conference at the mosque and it was the first time in 5 years that I travelled alone without my husband or kids so I had some space to think and reflect.
Granada is a city I first visited in 2003 (for the inauguration of the mosque) and I've since returned a few times. My time there this time around was a bizarre melding of my own personal history and the history of the place and people who have passed through before. I was called to reflect on both
Thank you for a fascinating post, Noha. Thanks to my dad's staunch interest in most things middle-eastern, I was lucky to know a little more than my peers about the rich Islamic legacy and the origin of the conflict that is currently incomprehensibly still allowed to torture and destroy thousands of human lives.
The link to Gabor Mate was so important too, thank you.
Mya, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I do think that if more people understood the history and the region, it wouldn't be so easy to simply dismiss the genocide right now as "complicated".
Gabor Mate is one of the most impressive people I've ever heard speak. Have you heard him speak on trauma before, and ego? He is both knowledgeable and empathetic.
Absolutely; the simple notion of genocide should suffice to alarm and galvanise action against it, wherever and against whomever.
I am looking more into Gabor Mate since your post, and very much looking forward to learning more about his views on trauma. I knew of him but unfortunately he got somehow lost in everything else I try to juggle with, thank you for helping me reconnect.
Honestly, you clearly know way more about the history than I do. I'll have to go back and look up the battle of Poitiers-Tours. The story of how the fief came to be is fascinating!! I had no idea about that either. Isn't the world just filled with these interesting stories? They feel so unlikely in hindsight!
Noha, this was absolutely beautiful. As you talked about the deep history of the Islamic world, I actually thought of Andalucía, before you mentioned it -- I spent a month there and a couple of days ago just hopped over to Morocco, and have been completely enthralled with the culture and beauty that have been preserved.
Though not the same, you also reminded me of my own childhood: I grew up in the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church, which is one of the oldest forms of Christianity in the world (3rd century AD) and it maintains a a very unique, rich cultural tradition; but because I grew up in the west, I always thought of Christianity as a “western” version -- Catholic, Protestant, etc. It was also a bit odd because most of Africa had been converted recently, while we had kind of isolated and kept to an old Christian tradition. I don’t practice religiously anymore, but I appreciate our Tewahedo cultura a lot more in its uniqueness and how it influenced our broader society.
Zefan, thank you so much. I'm so glad it spoke to you. I've come across a lot of interesting information around older Christianity (which I think Muslims would find more familiar than modern Christianity) and it's really sparked my interest. Does the Tewahedo Church follow the Nicene Creed? That is, does it follow the concept of trinity?
I totally get what you're saying about perceiving Christianity as a Western thing - I thought that too, for years. I also associated Muslimness as Arab. But there are many Arab Christians and many Muslim non-Arabs (eg. South Asians, East Africans, South Africans, etc etc)
Andalusia is absolutely stunning and I would love to go back again and again. I'm so grateful to have seen more of the culture and understood how broad ranging it is.
So yes, the Tewahedo church does follow the Nicene Creed, and I think all do, because it was part of the first split around the 4th century where there was disagreement about if Jesus had two natures (one human, one divine) or one nature (both human and divine). The Ethiopian Church, as well as some neighboring ones like Egyptian and Armenian, believed the latter and so broke off.
But yes, many of the religious practices are very similar to Islam, as well as Judaism! Eating habits are quite similar across all three, and hygiene regarding prayer (washing hands and face, taking off shoes, covering your head) are similar to Islam as well, maybe parts of Judaism too though I’m not sure. I do find it interesting how similar all the Abrahamic religions were initially, because I see the Tewahedo church as one that just hasn’t changed with westernization as the other sects of Christianity have.
That's super interesting. I figured maybe it didn't follow the Nicene Creed because it was from 3rd century AD and the Nicene creed was from 4th century. Also the word Tewahedo sounds really close to the Arabic word "tawhid" which is used to depict worship of One God.
I think your theory about why they're so similar is spot on. A lot of the things Muslims still practice used to be practiced commonly in Christianity, as you said. And possibly in Judaism although I am less familiar with their details.
Yes we were actually in Nicaea and agreed to that one, but there was a subsequent council in the 400s which is where we and some other churches fell off. But actually, Tewahedo does mean something like “United as one God!” Except it refers to Jesus being one, instead of having the two states that western churches adopted. It’s a word in Ge’ez, which is a dead language now but the language I speak (Tigrinya) is similar and even now in Morocco I’m noticing some some words in Arabic that are close enough for me to understand, especially numbers! It’s very cool.
That's so interesting! And confusing. I'll have to go back and compare what was in each council. I thought that Nicea was the one where they spoke about Jesus being in mulitple states, but it sounds from what you're saying that it's more at the council in the 400's that this came about?
It's so cool that the meaning is the same across those languages. I was just spitballing and it turned out to be true ...
It’s a little confusing 😅 It’s the council of Chalcedon in 451. Honestly, modern religious scholars have said that the disagreement didn’t actively matter in practice, but it happened haha
lol!!
I had to go back to find this conversation — I was so surprised at the presence of Islam in Macedonia and Kosovo! There’s even public call to prayer… made me think of what you were saying about how false the Islam = Arab stereotype is. I thought I was pretty educated here but even I was so surprised to find such a presence in Europe!
Hey hey!! I went back and re-read our earlier chat on this one - I am still confused re Trinity etc😂
But yes, the false Islam = Arab stereotype is real! And I've got a huge smile on my face - I take it as the highest compliment that you remembered this piece existed and came back to it after so many months... Are you in Macedonia/Kosovo now? Is this your next stop post Bulgaria?
To be fair everyone is confused if they try to think about it, religious scholars today say it has no actual impact on anything 🥲
I am in Kosovo currently! I’ll hop around the Balkans for a bit (Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo) and then… I have to get off this continent, I’m not a summer in Europe girlie lol, but idk where yet! So we’ll see 👹
Salaam! What a beautiful piece and powerful journey. Thank you for sharing, it's very inspirational and brought joy to my morning. I love how you bring it back to your mother in the end, and see how you weren't ready to see the wisdom and beauty then, but now you are. And I love this idea of a shift from a two-dimensional to a three-dimensional relationship, adding depth. Thank you!
Thank you so much, Wietske. I just read through your European Turtle Dove essay and it's so lovely! I love to weave Quranic verses into my writing too so I felt like I'd found a kindred spirit.
I try to remind myself of how long it took to internalize my mother's teachings when I feel like my kids aren't quite there with mine. It's helpful to understand that these things are slow cooked and take time.
Thank you so much! Ah, what a joy to find a true sense of connection, both with our own families and with like-hearted people online. Have a lovely day!
Thanks for this essay. I'll have to read it a few more times to really unpack it. It's so great to have those moments where you begin to understand what your parents and elders were trying to teach you. I think about that with my son introducing him to things and not really sure why but knowing he needs the exposure. It's funny you mention Greek mythology, every time I talk to teens, especially non-white ones, about what they're reading in school and they mention Greek mythology, I can hear the agony in their voices. I think it's important that they have some familiarity with it, but the singular focus as if there are no other mythologies, and the fact that is still the case in American schools is so frustrating. Reading is about learning ways of seeing the world. I see in working with kids and teens that they crave different lenses. It seems your mom understood that exposure would benefit you later in life. I recently learned about Leo Africanus in a book about African Muslim civilizations that I read with my son. That led me to read a historical fiction about him written by Amin Maalouf. I grew up around the corner from a "St. Leo the Great" Church and now knowing that "St. Leo" was a North African Arab Muslim I'm still tripping off that. As for your question at the end, not to be navel-gazing but I've been thinking a lot about how I've simplified myself and my family's history, we're "just" Black Americans, which has a lot to do with how we as Black Americans are miseducated about our own history - we were savages, then slaves, then free and now we're here. So now I'm enjoying digging into my family's history and learning our origins and migrations and how all of that lives in me and my family members. It helps me see the complexity in us all.
Ambata, your reply brought up so many different ideas for me. In terms of the Greek Mythology conversation, I totally agree with you. it's helpful to have some sense of it from an English Lit perspective, but I remember thinking as I learned about it "really? This? Absolute nonsense!" - It's made out to be the greatest thing ever and it's not really any more special than any other myth. In Ontario, my province in Canada, we studied Greek Mythology in 9th grade. My eldest is in 8th grade now, so I'm not sure if they're still doing that, but I do know that both boys have learned a lot of Indigenous myths for various Indigenous tribes of Turtle Island and we definitely didn't do that at their age.
The Leo Africanus connection is WILD. So he's a Muslim and it was turned into a church? I'm fascinated.
I don't think what you're describing is navel-gazing at all! We are not encouraged to learn our history, and are instead encouraged to learn everything there is to know about Euro-centric culture, life, background. Have you read the novel Americana, by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie? It really delves into this idea, from the perspective of the main character who's a Nigerian woman and belongs to a specific ethnic group (I don't remember which one now, which is embarrassing) but then moves to the US and suddenly her actual ethnicity doesn't matter and she's Black and that's it. I really enjoyed it.
Yes I love Americana. Was just thinking it's time for another read of it, it's still so relevant. Regarding Leo Africanus, so he was canonized, but the historian belief is that he likely faked conversion to save his life. His story is fascinating. I would definitely recommend the book.
You've definitely piqued my interest!
Hi Noha, this was a gorgeous post. I read it a couple of times to see what came up for me. I felt like I was traveling through Spain with you all and loved how you tied the story together at the end by reflecting back on your mom's plays.
I watched the interview you shared with Gabor Mate, he's such a rad guy. I've been listening to The Martyrmade podcast (he's on Substack!), the first episode from 2015 kicks off a deep dive into the Palestine/Israel relationship that goes back to the time of the Jewish exile. It has been fascinating. I think he takes a neutral perspective and it feels more like storytelling than convincing. I really didn't know how much involvement western Europe had well before 1948. It's still a bit unclear to me where and how the US was involved, but he may be getting to that. It's slow going as the episodes are each several hours long, but I'm not sure how I would have learned this much otherwise.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and all of these resources.
Katie, I'm so glad you enjoyed it. It really was an experience where so many things came together for me.
I really appreciate Gabor Mate and the fact that he's been able to change his stance on the situation once he saw the cost of Israeli occupation. I appreciate him doubly as a Canadian for his positions on the issues Indigenous people in Canada face as well.
I haven't heard of the Martyrmade podcast but I'll look into it! Thanks for letting me know about it. Yes, the US and Western Europe were involved from the start. I really do think understanding the history is valuable. A lot of people are told "it's complicated" or, "it's a religious war" or "it's a conflict that's thousands of years old" but none of that is true, and I think these are just intimidation tactics that are used to try to get people not to engage and speak out for an end to occupation.
That line! “It’s a conflict that’s thousands of years old” made my ears perk up when he said it on Martyrmade. I was thinking... wait, it’s not? You have my attention. I hope you do listen, though you’re already well ahead of me learning the history, so it might be singing to the choir. I’d love to discuss it with someone though!
If you have questions or want to chat about it do reach out! I may not have time to listen to it all but if specific things came up for you I may already know about them.
Just to clarify, did he explain that it's not a thousands of years old conflict? Or is he of the position that it is? I'm assuming he agrees that it really only started in the late 1800's.
That'd be rad, thanks!
And yes, that's right. As I understood from his story, the Roman's burned down Jerusalem sometime in the first century C.E. The Jewish people fled and made homes elsewhere around the world until the 1890s when Theodor Herzl established Zionism and rallied followers to establish a Jewish homeland.
Even with that context, it's so messy. I don't have a strong religious background that would make me align with a group of people in that way. My western European heritage hasn't been significant in my life so far with the exception of being white which makes it not insignificant at all I guess.
I suppose my American identity might be similar enough, though I don't feel like I'm bonded more tightly to someone because they are from the States vs someone from another part of the world. It's weird to me that we would say today that "we need a special piece of land because we're Americans!" Of course, this decision was made long before I came around and a bunch of people decided just that. Having the privilege of judging the past with the knowledge of today also makes this complicated.
Do you have this kind of connection to other people who are Muslim? Egyptian? Canadian? If that's complicated to answer in this kind of public way, I'd understand if you'd rather not. I had conversations like this during my travels and it was a mixed bag how people felt about their countries and family or community ties, including a group of men and women I met from Israel.
Always enjoy your work, Noha. Excellent piece, as always.
Thank you so much, Willow!
Wow. Incredibly moving. This is one of those pieces that needs some time to settle in me.
I travelled to Granada this month! I was invited to speak at a conference at the mosque and it was the first time in 5 years that I travelled alone without my husband or kids so I had some space to think and reflect.
Granada is a city I first visited in 2003 (for the inauguration of the mosque) and I've since returned a few times. My time there this time around was a bizarre melding of my own personal history and the history of the place and people who have passed through before. I was called to reflect on both
Thank you for a fascinating post, Noha. Thanks to my dad's staunch interest in most things middle-eastern, I was lucky to know a little more than my peers about the rich Islamic legacy and the origin of the conflict that is currently incomprehensibly still allowed to torture and destroy thousands of human lives.
The link to Gabor Mate was so important too, thank you.
Mya, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I do think that if more people understood the history and the region, it wouldn't be so easy to simply dismiss the genocide right now as "complicated".
Gabor Mate is one of the most impressive people I've ever heard speak. Have you heard him speak on trauma before, and ego? He is both knowledgeable and empathetic.
Absolutely; the simple notion of genocide should suffice to alarm and galvanise action against it, wherever and against whomever.
I am looking more into Gabor Mate since your post, and very much looking forward to learning more about his views on trauma. I knew of him but unfortunately he got somehow lost in everything else I try to juggle with, thank you for helping me reconnect.
Hi CJ!
Honestly, you clearly know way more about the history than I do. I'll have to go back and look up the battle of Poitiers-Tours. The story of how the fief came to be is fascinating!! I had no idea about that either. Isn't the world just filled with these interesting stories? They feel so unlikely in hindsight!